posted 05-31-2012 03:10 PM         

Or the building inspector, for that matter.

posted 05-31-2012 04:31 PM            

You should also appreciate that you’re obligated to disclose potential electrical problems to potential buyers.
http://realestate.msn.com/dont-fall-victim-to-a-lying-home-seller
http://real-estate.lawyers.com/residential-real-estate/Disclosing-Problems-When-Selling-Your-House.html

>>>>>In addition to the items listed above, a seller or broker should disclose problems or defects like:

• Poor electrical wiring

posted 05-31-2012 05:40 PM            

If you've ever seen the movie "Fight Club" you've seem my home (or one like it). Leaky roof. Flooded basement. Rusted water pipes.

Well, its not exactly like that - I replaced all the plumbing and the new electricity is done for the basement and part of the main living area.

Just a few more weeks at home and the new 'lectric will be done.

As they say: out with the old, in with the new.

zzzzt

r

------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)

posted 05-31-2012 07:18 PM            

quote:

---

In addition to the items listed above, a seller or broker should disclose problems or defects like: • Poor electrical wiring

---

posted 06-01-2012 08:44 AM            

This forum has partially moved into a realm of proper electronics manufacturing processes (e.g. electrical tape on connectors inferred to be inexpensive and possibly "cheap") is that sub-standard? Instead of asking Raymond the same rhetorical question, please answer it for us Mr. Brown (or any other electronics expert). Share your knowledge with us or please lead us to a source of knowledge where we may educate ourselves.

Raymond has worked tirelessly to advance this profession, often to his own personal detriment. He and I have both studied EDRs in an effort to better understand and describe putative psychophysiological causation for EDRs. For years we have often been satisfied with a teleological assumptions about EDRs without regard to causality. This has led to considerable criticism about the specificity of EDRs as we apply them in polygraph. The gentleman who started this conversation has done us all a great service by reminding us just how important EDRs are to the PDD (50% or more of the data used to make determinations)and why we need answers to how and why they appear.

My heartfelt request is that Mr. Brown dial down the rhetorical questions of Raymond and help us understand electrical manufacturing at a lay examiner level. If using electrical tape and inexpensive connectors is sub-standard then please tell us so we can hold Lafayette accountable and ask them to consider upgrading to modern standards. If using electrical tape and inexpensive connectors is a matter of preference/manufacturing differences then just say that.

posted 06-01-2012 09:22 AM         

I agree. This fire hydrant has been pissed on one too many times. This is a great topic and I would like to see us get back to it!

posted 06-01-2012 09:51 AM         

I disagree with your characterization of Jamie's tough questions as constituting a personal attack on Ray. Your complaint smacks of the kind of party-line tripe that the liberal left loves to use ("the politics of personal destruction") that serves as a red herring when a discussion gets uncomfortable.

Ray's contributions to polygraph are substantial, there's no doubt about that. But in showcasing his spectacular command of statistical knowledge (and many other things polygraph) in forums such as this one, in his ever-growing plethora of deep and pedantic published articles, and through his high-profile and world-wide lecturing activities, Ray has risen to demigod status in the polygraph field.

Demigods -- be they in industry, academia or even public service -- often get a free pass on the tough questions. That ain't right.

Jamie simply asked some pointed questions that Ray has sidestepped. Ray should answer Jamie's questions directly, thoroughly and without ambiguity.

Dan

posted 06-01-2012 10:21 AM            

If you've forgotten:

quote:

---

Everyone knows that I am not an electrical engineer, and was not involved in the design or assembly of the device in the photograph that is disseminated at every possible opportunity.

I will continue to provide any information I can to the polygraph profession and polygraph professionals. However, I cannot possibly have the answers to these engineering questions, and it therefore makes no sense to continue to ask these questions of me.

I would like to invite anyone with any questions to contact Lafayette directly for information about the design and development of the LX4000 and LX5000.

---

posted 06-01-2012 10:48 AM         

How tough would it be for Ray -- who is on Lafayette's payroll and has an office at their facility -- to convey Jamie's questions to the engineers and then post their responses here?

posted 06-01-2012 10:50 AM            

Flattering, but hardly true - though it would might be fun to be a demigod for about an hour or so.

Your more general comments are on point, regarding getting a pass on tough questions.

Jamie did ask questions, and I also believe he did already provide others with his answer (as Mark suggested). Critical analysis is helpful - even from competitors.

As to sidestepping the question: I participate in this forum as an individual - and the things I say and do here should be considered my opinion and not the views of the APA or LIC. Despite that there is still a tendency for views and opinions to be perceived and interpreted as a reflection of a broader group. So I want to be careful to avoid that.

I think it is clear that my personal (non-professional) opinion on matters of engineering and technology are not adequate.

I just replaced the catalytic converter on my Nissan and I'll admit I did a sloppy soldering job and taped a couple of wires on part of the wiring loom connected to an oxygen sensor. To me the he purpose of the electrical tape is to provide both electrical insulation and structural support (I tape the wiring loom to a secure point). Maybe my standards are low, and maybe I am a cheap bastard for not taking it to the shop to have it done. OK. I'll put another 50K on the Nissan either way.

Anyway some questions I can answer and some I cannot. I cannot speak to the details of the circuit change, and have only general information.

I think there is nothing wrong - if you think the construction should be different - in telling that to LIC.

I can tell you that since 2007 the new EDA circuit has existed on the main board.

I don't know the details or deficiencies of the old or new circuits.

As I recall the instrument I used from another manufacturer was also subject to a modification to the EDA circuit - it was, as I understood, to improve the range of sensitivity. Does that mean the circuit was defective? Not necessarily. It does means an improvement was developed and made available.

As I understand it, the new circuit in the LX 4K was intended to provide better sensitivity. I do not know why the modification was not made to the main PCB board.

Dan, I thought your earlier questions were in part serious and in part so obvious that they were perhaps not serious. You and Jamie have asked tough questions, and they should be answered. My point is that I am not the correct person to answer some of these questions.

I'll continue to try to get information and answers, but you have to keep in mind that I am still participating in this forum as an individual and my views and opinions are not necessarily those of the APA or LIC.

My big interest is in the profession and the contribution we make. The long term effectiveness of the profession should remain the main concern. In the end that will be best for all of us - individuals, communities, nations, and various business interests.

It is a good conversation, and I hope we can continue to discuss these things.

.02

r

------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)

posted 06-01-2012 02:25 PM            

I disagree with you, sir, that because of Raymond's recognized expertise in statistics and test development he is qualified (or even responsible) for answering an electrical engineering question. Just because he works at LIC, does not make him an expert in all things. As Barry pointed out, he readily admits that he is not an electrical engineer.

posted 06-01-2012 02:40 PM            

You’re a Lafayette sales representative. I respectfully suggest that you call your own engineers and ask them for their expert opinion. You already know what I think.

I believe I’ve said all I needed to say and I’ll let examiners draw their own conclusions. I sincerely have a lot of respect for Ray Nelson and I always have. Ray knows that I’ve personally encouraged and commended him many times in the past for all the hard work he’s done for the profession. Ray is definitely an asset to the polygraph profession and I just think that our “Demigod” needs to pay closer attention to being truly independent and impartial.

As a manufacturer and electronics engineering technologist my final recommendation would be to “look closer” at the other manufacturers. I sincerely believe that examiners do care about problems that are possibly lurking in their instrumentation. Since Ray is a Lafayette representative, who also happens to provide all of the literature on their 6 EDA modes, I’ve made the honest mistake of believing him to be the appropriate person to ask. Ray has provided some useful insights and it’s unfortunate that someone more knowledgeable at Lafayette hasn’t made an appearance on this forum to provide more complete answers. I still think we deserve a better explanation regarding the workmanship and lack of disclosure but I’ve reached the conclusion that there are no answers that can be discussed on this forum. I concede and it’s now time for me to stop asking the pointy questions.

Ray

>>>>>“As I recall the instrument I used from another manufacturer was also subject to a modification to the EDA circuit”

Limestone Technologies introduced our instrument in 2003. In 2006 examiner feedback brought to our attention that our EDA needed improvement at the low end of the measurable EDA range. We changed one resistor and lowered our bandwidth to measure from 20K to 9Mega Ohms. It wasn’t a big change and I ‘m 100 percent confident that we remembered to fasten things securely inside the enclosure. There was no need for electricians tape and cardboard. Limestone modified any instruments sold prior to 2006 free of charge. I can personally assure examiners that this was a manageable and professionally done modification. In 2007 we added two additional inputs. The 2007 DataPac_USB revision allowed us to support a new piezo and PLE measurement. I hope this explains the two hardware modifications that we’ve made to our DataPac_USB in the past decade. If there are more questions examiners are welcome to let me know. Toll Free: 866.765.9770 ext 201

Dan,

posted 06-01-2012 04:00 PM            

I do not know the details of what was changed or why.

Hardware changes to the LX4K that I am aware of are: 1) the add-on PCB board to provide an EDA circuit with increased sensitivity (that is my only information on what was different, and I do not understand the electrical engineering details of how that was accomplished), 2) incorporation of the more sensitive EDA circuit into the main PCB board after 2006, and 3) a more recent new LX4K board that has improved connectors, includes a dedicated P02/PLE connector, and is EC compliant for interference.

I think it should be clear to everyone that these conversations will be more beneficial to all when they are approached with a spirit of mutual respect and a desire for learning and knowledge related to common professional goals.

It is no secret that I enjoyed using both the Axciton instrument for years, and then enjoyed a mutually supportive respect and friendship with Jamie while using the Limestone instrument in my field practice before joining Lafayette. Technology and instruments evolve (hopefully) and there will always be something to learn and some problem to solve somewhere. Perhaps more important is that we don't forget to also value and preserve our human relationships that also affect both individuals, and the stability and effectiveness of the profession.

So, on to interesting things...

------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)